Do not change my workspace when upgrading

RE: 368074128197

Why are you even butting in here now?  It's you and Brian that are prolonging this discussion.  I merely pointed out in one post today to Walter that we've long since discussed his suggestion and are not looking for work-arounds, but rather discussing a feature request (an enhancement to the way it works now).  It's both of you moderators who are going in a less-than-productive direction.  Last I looked, us users are free to discuss these feature requests however we want and there's no need to "shut down" the discussion at any point as long as things are civil.

I pick on things like this because Capture One is full of little turds like this where the product just isn't smooth or polished and every single upgrade uncovers a bunch of them because of the upgrade speed bumps.  Yeah, it's not the most important individual feature request in the world, but it does affect user sentiment every time you realize it's messed with your configuration when (with just a little smarts), it didn't need to. 

In my software development career, a given product cycle had:

• Major features we were working on
• Bugs we were working on
• A set of things in the "fit and finish" category that were annoying to users that we were working on. 
• Things that were causing support costs that we were working on

Each of those had a mostly separate development budget because they each had a separate purpose in the marketing and life of the product.  You would never prioritize an individual fit and finish item over a major feature if they two were force stack ranked, but both had their valuable purpose in the grand plan to grow the product.  This would be a "fit and finish" item.  It regularly annoys people and shows a lack of smoothness or polish.

381975022417 - so possibly the discussion has run its course. There is not much more we can add that will persuade the developers that it's (a) desirable (b) easy (c) will please more users than it annoys.

Ian

RE: 6938618439453

This is a feature request thread.  We're discussing a feature request for whomever at Capture One ever decides to read it.  I don't know what "answer" you speak of.

6938618439453 - yes, my comment was based on my assumption (though I am no expert) that it might be a more complicated business than first appears just to save those few clicks.

Ian

RE: 368074128197

It's not a complex implementation at all.  The installer just needs a cumulative list of all versions that included changes to the workspace and if any of those versions are between what you have and what you're upgrading to, it knows there's been a workspace change, otherwise not.  You don't even have to start with backwards compatibility, just start keeping track of it going forward so at least the point upgrade that comes in two weeks will be smart about it for anyone upgrading from 16.3.3 and beyond.

FYI, the installer or Capture One first run logic (I'm not sure where the code lies) already has some logic like this where it backs up your recipes and starts a new recipe folder in the profile with a different number, but only does it sometimes, not every upgrade.

But what if I am updating to 16.3.3 from 16.3.1, or from 16.2.4, or from 15.4.2, or 14.3.1, etc, all of which are possible? Would the installer need be to be able to determine what version is currently installed and then decide whether that entailed any new features that might mean a workspace change would be desirable? (I don't know, I am just asking.)

Ian, the real question is how much true improvement and how many new features would be sacrificed at the altar of saving someone 3 clicks (at most) every upgrade cycle. Writing this logic is possible but try to imagine the design and development cycle and then the qa testing. It’s just nuts.

John, the question you and GG ask has been answered repeatedly. It’s not the answer you two want so you just keep asking.

The discussion now is about why don't they just leave your current workspace intact (instead of creating more unwanted cruft in your profile directory) when there are no changes in the workspace when you're doing an upgrade from something like 16.3.0 to 16.3.1 that have no changes to the workspace.

I confess that I am no expert when it comes to app development. But it seems to me that what you are suggesting might be reasonably complex. If I update from 16.3.2 to 16.3.3, the installer (presumably the 16.3.3 installer) may be able to determine whether there are any workspace changes needed from 16.3.2. But what if I am updating to 16.3.3 from 16.3.1, or from 16.2.4, or from 15.4.2, or 14.3.1, etc, all of which are possible? Would the installer need be to be able to determine what version is currently installed and then decide whether that entailed any new features that might mean a workspace change would be desirable? (I don't know, I am just asking.)

Ian

RE: 368108974477

We've been through all that already in the thread.  The discussion now is about why don't they just leave your current workspace intact (instead of creating more unwanted cruft in your profile directory) when there are no changes in the workspace when you're doing an upgrade from something like 16.3.0 to 16.3.1 that have no changes to the workspace.  With more frequent upgrades (for subscribers), Capture One should invest a little effort in not making all this junk on every single upgrade.

From other threads, I know you're already aware of how much junk they leave in the profile directory as you migrate versions.  This is yet another instance of that and it's a slight inconvenience to the user.

Because 16.3 would not run at all with my existing profile directory, I had to start from scratch and rebuild everything which makes me also sensitive to them constantly mucking with it on every single little point release.  They could make this a lot nicer for the user if they cared.  That's what we're discussing.

FYI, I'm avoiding upgrades completely unless there's something specifically I want or need in the upgrade because I just don't want it messing with things the way it does and because I had a really bad upgrade experience to 16.3.

When you install an upgrade Capture One makes a backup of your current workspace. You can restore that workspace from the Windows > Workspace menu. Given that upgrades sometimes introduce new tools or new features in a tool perhaps Capture One does this to ensure you see these updates. At least the preserve your workspace with a backup that you can quickly restore.

381975022417

At the very least, they should preserve your current workspace as the active workspace when upgrading from version x to version y when that version change doesn't include any new tools which is actually true of most incremental version upgrades

That right. I upgraded from 16.3.1 to 16.3.3, my workspace has changed for no reason as changelog (not displayed : you have to find it) do not mention any change in tools. That's an other (major) thing I don't like in C1 : the lack of message explaining what the software is currently doing. *sigh*

Re: 369989507697

Don't underestimate the support costs that may be incurred from users getting a new version and then they can't find a new feature that is touted in the new version.  So, they write in to support about it and the problem was that the new tool isn't visible in their custom workspace.  That is a real thing and is a real cost.  So, it's not surprising that Capture One would want to minimize that support cost.

There may also be some support cost for "where did my custom workspace go" too which is to your point.

So, just keep in mind that visibility of new features in the workspace is a problem that needs to be addressed in parallel with a path to preserve your current workspace.  I agree they can do better in this regard than they are, but as long as my prior workspace is still there and I can select it, it's not a show stopper to me.  I've written bug reports on issues that affect my usage far, far, far more than that.

At the very least, they should preserve your current workspace as the active workspace when upgrading from version x to version y when that version change doesn't include any new tools which is actually true of most incremental version upgrades (16.3.0 to 16.3.1 to 16.3.2 to 16.3.3, for example).

Hi 6938618439453

 It's really cool to have access to multiple workspaces

I only use one, carefully arranged. All the tools I need are at the good place. I use C1 for few years and I never felt the use to swap between worspaces. Even if I "should" try, I still don't see the need to mess it up upon upgrade.

This gives you an opportunity to see the tools the way developers think they're best implemented. 

Maybe I missed something but upon upgrade I never saw a kind of "guided tour" that says "the new tools are here". And if I may insist : developers point of view is one thing, mine is another. You wouldn't accept ME to arrange YOUR bedroom because I consider my way is better, even I tell you "you can recover it in a snap". It's a matter of respect : your bedroom, your choices. And I insist again : what the use of messing up my workspace just because new tools are available ? could it be possible to let my workspace the way I left it and let ME decide to change it or not ?

I understand your point of view and explanations. I consider it's an improvement as I consider disturbing user's work without telling him ("your workspace has been modified, here is a special one that shows you what we have made"), without asking it's permission ("click here if you want a workspace that show the new things") and without recovering what you mess up ("your workspace will be restored when you'll restart C1. This one will be called 'whats-new-in-version-X'") is not respectfull. You don't enter in people's life, way of doing, and such, without asking permission. It's the way I work.

369989507697

That's cool and all but I still don't understand your request or think it has merit.

Capture One has already:

1) given you a vehicle to save your workspace(s) so they can be recalled any time you want.  Check it out.  It's really cool to have access to multiple workspaces for various types of work.  At least, I think it is.  You might, too.

2) backed up your active workspace at time of upgrade. This gives you an opportunity to see the tools the way developers think they're best implemented.  You can cruise though and decide if you like or prefer your own.  If the latter, it's literally, click, click, click and you're back in business.

Every. Last. Change. you've suggested will take hours to days of coding and testing and documentation and training so that you don't have to go click! click! click!

I think Capture One has a responsibility to we users to listen to these changes we feel will make the application better and give them some consideration.  I also think we users have a responsibility to Capture One to police our suggestions and keep them somewhat within the guardrails of "improving Capture One".  

In my personal opinion, this ask to save you Click! Click! Click! on the rare occasion when you upgrade isn't work the hours and hours and cost of making the change you suggest.  And further, I don't think the change would be an improvement.

I'm one vote here but I vote down.

6938618439453

In a forest of fires, you want to prune a shrub.

Nice expression :)

But if forest was on fire, I would open a bug, not a feature.

The forest is nice, I'm walking in it, and branches are constantly hitting my face. I would like to make the path clear so that I can enjoy the forest.

And if forest is on fire, I won't be annoyed by those branches and could concentrate on fire.

It's a matter of beeing kind to users, so that they are in better mood, can forgive bugs, work better, are less irritated.

368074128197

Why not saving me few minutes by just NOT touching the workspace ?

Or hey I have an idea : if C1 MUST change workspace for an unknown reason, why not then setting the previsous one ? or propose me to do so ?

374108612097

Or C1 can also save me those 2 clicks and no touch my workspace.

C1 is the only software I know that mess up your UI upon upgrade. Upon EACH upgrade even the smallest.

Imagine you wife/husband buy a new teapot, and say "dear, upon upgrading the teapot I completly reset your deskop, but you have saved it, right ?"

It's a human thing, I guess : when you do something please do not mess up with other ones job, or at least ask them.

I agree that reverting to your pre-upgrade workspace is only a couple of clicks away, and not really burdensome.

To the point that you have to wade through multiple older saved workspaces, I'd suggest that you can always delete those. It could be the work of a few minutes if there are huge numbers of them, but once you have caught up with it, it is again not too burdensome to routinely delete all but the last couple when (if) you revert to the backed up one.

Ian

369989507697

Or you could, you know, save your workspace and reload it what(?) once each time you upgrade.  Saving your workspace is just good practice anyway.  And if you forget to save your workspace, Capture One creates a backup of the active workspace at the time of upgrade.  You can click Window>Workspace>the very top option in the 3rd section of the fly-out.  It'll be labeled "Backup from Capture One (version number you just upgraded from)". 

You're spending massive time here to save yourself what? 2 or 3 clicks (at most and literally) when you upgrade? In a forest of fires, you want to prune a shrub.  smh.

(Obligatory: My personal opinion.  Volunteer community mod.  Not affiliated with Capture One.)

381975022417

The upgrade code isn't smart enough to account for what version you're upgrading from.

That's my proposition : C1 should never touch my workspace.